Episode 012

Gurus, Guides & Outsourcing Your Power

Importance of Self-Responsibility & Discernment

In this conversation, we discuss the topic of Gurus, Guides, and Outsourcing Your Power. In May 2024, an article was released about a spiritual cult known as Twin Ray and through the lens of this story, we discuss the importance of self responsibility, discernment and questioning everything as we navigate our spiritual paths. 

We discuss the dynamics of codependency and the victim oppressor that can play out in the spiritual and healing realms when we abdicate our power and look to others for all of our answers. 

We discuss the energetic imbalances that take place, and how we can empower ourselves by doing the inner healing work to become aware of our wounding and patterns before we seek external guidance. 

We close our conversation with a discussion on the cultivation of inner knowing and the role of intuition in navigating the spiritual journey.

Click here to read the referenced article. 

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Awakening Conversations Podcast Episode 12
Awakening Conversations
012. Gurus, Guides & Outsourcing Your Power - Importance of Self-Responsibility & Discernment

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In this episode...

  • Be discerning when seeking guidance on the spiritual journey and question everything
  • Avoid giving away power to external authorities and cultivate self-direction and self-responsibility 
  • Trust your own inner wisdom, intuition and discernment when seeking guidance and healing on the spiritual path.
  • Do not give away your personal power to others; remember that true healers are there to assist, not to heal you.
  • You have all the resources within you to navigate your path. Seek those that help you gain access to that so that you are the leader of your life.


Kate (00:00)

Welcome back to the Awakening Conversations podcast. My name is Kate and I am here with my cohost Amanda. And today we are talking about Gurus, Guides and Outsourcing Our Power. And we’re bringing this topic forward at this point in time, it’s the 26th of May that we’re recording this because earlier this month there was an expose or an article that came out about a cult called Twin Ray. There’s a, I think it’s an Australian man and an American woman who have formed what they call Twin Ray. They are Twin Ray. Apparently they’ve said that they are one soul inhabiting one body. 

And they have followers who they have told that they are miracle workers and that they are avatars who have come to usher in a golden age. They call themselves Divine Mother and Divine Father and offer remote surgeries, DNA upgrades and karma clearings, as well as selling a whole host of wellness or spiritual based products and very expensive retreats.

And we want to talk about this today because in the early stages of our journeys, our spiritual journeys, our awakening journeys, we can feel very lost. We can have a lot of questions. We want to know, we’re learning, we’re growing, we’re seeking to understand. And so it’s very natural for us to want to look to someone to begin to guide us, to help us make sense of our experiences.

And in this particular story, it’s a very interesting example of the victim and oppressor dynamic and how we need to really work on our own discernment to recognize within ourselves where we might be giving away our power to someone else through our spiritual journeys. And so this is a story that really highlights that dynamic. And we want to unpack that a little bit today.

Amanda, I’m going to let you open here with this article. Maybe if you want to paint a little bit more picture of this and where would you like to start with our conversation today about this so our listeners can really learn more about this dynamic and what we’re really looking for as we navigate these early parts of our journeys as a sort of, you know, self responsibility piece that we can really begin to be more aware of.

Amanda (02:22)

Yeah, I think you did a great job of introducing it. And this article I saw posted on my Facebook feed and a lot of people were commenting on it. And I just want to say a few things. It’s like, you know, this we’ll link to this article specifically. It’s someone who does a lot of investigative reporting about spiritual, I’ll say quote unquote, cults or groups and so you know obviously the person who wrote this is writing it from a particular lens and so we don’t know the full story right. We’re seeing one picture and I think it’s an interesting topic to explore whether this is just you know, this is just one vantage point of the situation. We don’t know, I don’t know who these people are, I don’t even know, I mean I clicked on one video and listened to something they were saying. 

I think what this article highlighted was an extreme power imbalance, which I think those that are in integrity in their guiding role should be aware of that power imbalance also when there’s a financial component, right? Like taking a lot of people’s funds and selling them on big ideas, big dreams. And so what I took away from this piece was that there were a lot of people who bought into this vision that these two people painted. A lot of people paid thousands and…I think someone, there are people who invested like, I don’t want to misquote it, but tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars into their vision. And so it’s a tricky thing because I think those of us who are visionaries, we need to be able to sell our vision and at the same time do it with integrity and being aware of how power works, right? Like, are we seeking out people that are in desperation, people that are desperate to heal, desperate to find relief, and so they’re willing to just throw their money at this vision?

I think how this story was communicated and told, it seemed as though this is very an extreme case, right of people putting others on a pedestal and then, you know, there are stories of what sounded like abuse or, you know, people when they were unhappy or unsatisfied with the situation. There were reports of what sounded like some abuse that occurred. So I think that this extreme example, while some of us might not be in a cult, when we, we, we come from, a lot of us come from cultures where we learn to outsource our power, right? Like we learned through our education, through just the messages of society to look outside of ourselves for answers. 

And so then when we are, when we step out of maybe the status quo, we are going against maybe what the rule set is. And so if we haven’t learned how to navigate things on our own, we are going to seek someone else to tell us how to do things. And that’s how we can fall. We can fall prey to people who want to, are not aware of where their ego is like wanting a lot of power. So I think that it’s interesting to read the story and see like, where am I giving away my power right now? Where maybe have I given away my power in the past? And to just reflect on that because I think as we’re going forward in our, this new paradigm that you know we’re moving towards that dynamic is, is that no, that the dynamic is no longer going to be able to exist and persist right and so we’re going to see more of these situations where this dynamic has been playing out become become exposed right and yeah, I think it’s a good lesson, a good example for us to reflect upon where we are now and like where, whether we’re on like the guide teacher side, like where am I not empowering the people that I’m trying to help? Am I trying to be a savior or am I trying to encourage people to be their own savior, right? Cause that’s ultimately we need to do is we need to cultivate our own self -responsibility, self-direction in our lives, if that makes sense.

Kate (07:45)

Hmm. Yeah. And you know, the interesting thing that I found as I read that article is that, and what really kind of really felt uncomfortable for me to read was, you know, there’s what they’re sharing and where they’re coming from. There’s, I want to say truth in it.

And I want to say there’s a lot of spiritual practice in it. There’s a lot of spiritual talk in it. There’s many things I believe in there. There’s many things that, you know, I, you know, would probably say to someone or, you know,  and the scary thing is, is that then there’s this fine line between, then it goes over an edge and it becomes some sort of  exploitation of that. Where it’s like, it’s a very tricky slippery place. In this situation of course, you know, it’s, it’s a, you know, been described as a cult, you know, through their way of, you know, operating, they have exploited people. It’s, it appears through, you know, financial gain and like selling things at these high tickets, high prices and even retreats and one -on -one coaching. That’s been, is it’s a very high, high prices.

And, you know, sort of making claims that they have these, these, these inner secrets and wisdom that only they have. So therefore, you know, selling that on. And so exactly, there’s this sort of real gray area between, you know, things that there’s someone genuinely is here to share and teach other people to help guide them on their spiritual path. And then that edge where that crosses over into, you know, what I saw played out in some of their videos and how that they described things and then the way that they’re selling it. And so it’s like, it’s such an important thing, as you said, to have this, you know, self responsibility and this, discernment on, especially as we enter into this world of learning more about the spiritual side of life and going deeper into it, where you really need to start to have your senses on, you know, like, take it slowly, take it gradually, because what I really hear you’re saying, and it was something that came up for me as I read it, it’s like, it’s so important to be aware of our wounding before we go too deep. Right? Because our work when we first awaken and we have this spiritual, head down a spiritual path is it is, there’s a huge component of healing that has to happen, I believe, at the forefront of that journey for us to kind of get to a point where we really can start to reap the benefits and, you know, hold higher perspectives of things or broader perspectives of things. And like, you know, I don’t know, maybe ascend or grow or whatever, but we have to heal first. And there’s so much within us, especially as you said, that we grow up in a culture where we do, the teachers are the authority, the doctor’s the authority, the police are the authority, the government’s the authority, right? What they say we do.

So it’s very natural inclination for us to be like, well, these people know more than me, so therefore I will, I will give them my attention. What they’re saying, because I don’t know any better, must be right. Right. So we really, that’s the giving away of our power. It’s super important in the early stages to exactly be working with your, as I said, your wounding. What, what are the parts of my experience today might, might have made me be a people pleaser or, you know, do I have insecurities where I want to be liked and do I put people on pedestals? That’s been part of my journey. Seeing, you know, putting people up there that don’t belong up there. No one does, right? We’re all on an equal playing field. And you have to have those experiences too, right? Like I’ve invested in people that I thought were, you know, up there. And then I’ve had these experiences on like, you got nothing to tell me that I didn’t already know. And actually the way you sold that to me was just flashing lights and mirrors and like hype. And I’m like, okay, that’s super disappointing. So, you know, in that too, we will go out and experience that hopefully we don’t get as far down the track to maybe find ourselves in a cult, but it is, it’s part of this, this journey. 

And, you know, we had a chat before the call of like, it’s almost like we do have to come up against these, have these experiences of where we have given away our power to people. To be like, and now I know what it feels like to actually be like that. That’s not actually a fun experience. And, and I can think of even like other things that I’ve invested in when you were talking before about, from the coaches side as well, like me being a client, but investing in a coach that, you know, it is the worst, worst thing when they have, have seen what is your wound.

Kate (12:50)

And that pain point marketing, they know what you want. And then they whack this price tag on it. And then you get inside and then you’re like, this isn’t what you sold me and this isn’t helping me. And this one particular one was once I was in it, it was like, now you’re going to spend even more money. And I was just like, what? And so, you know, again, massive learning for me, especially because I realized I was coming at that particular coach from my wound. So, you know, our work can be, if we’re looking for people to work with I believe we’ve got to do a little bit of that ourselves, right? Do all the free stuff first, get your bearings, get an understanding of yourself and what you are working with in terms of your stuff so that you can see that. And maybe, you know, when you’re choosing someone to give your attention to, to teach you or guide you, you know, you’ve got as much discernment in that moment as you possibly can to choose someone who’s in the right fit for you for where you’re at in that moment.

Amanda (13:51)

Yeah, that’s so, that’s so resonant. Yeah, and I think what it comes down to is beginning to look at, we just recorded our last episode about the family dynamics, right? It’s looking at like our relationships with our parents a lot of times it’s us, there might be an underlying fear of, going it alone or where did we learn not to trust our own read of things? And really that’s a process that we’ve come to cultivate, I think, over time through making the mistakes in quotation marks, because really they are our lessons.

And sometimes the lessons like in this instance might be more expensive. Those people are willing to spend more money. And in a way it’s like we’re paying into the school of life sometimes for our own inner cultivation to develop that discernment because I mean, I’ve gone through all like bunch of courses and programs and thinking like, this is the one that’s like going to solve my problem. And, you know, it’s not to say that I didn’t find any results or have any benefit from doing it, but at the same time, where was I not trusting my myself and wanting someone else to be the the solution for me versus and you know, we all are helping each other on our journeys, right? We’re not, that likely there was something in that other person that I was gonna benefit from.

I guess it’s when like harm comes on the other side, right? Like I’ve heard, there someone who I think it’s this kind of controversial medical medium, you probably know who that is.

Kate (15:59)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Amanda (16:00)

There was like an expose that came out about him. I want to say it was last year, a year ago, and it was someone who put him on a pedestal. They were following everything that he was saying. She got sick and she died. And this is according to this piece that came out about him. And I think that, I think when someone gets so big, right, when they are given so much power, like there’s, it’s hard for someone not to have an adverse experience, right? Like I know a lot of people that have been helped by his advice,

Kate (16:37)

Mm -hmm.

Amanda (16:41)

But I also see him kind of like put on a pedestal as a guru as well, like, he’s the end all, like the nutritional advice. But it’s like, he’s following his intuition about the nutrition, but also, are you following your own intuition? Is he teaching you how to be an intuitive eater? Or is he teaching you how to follow like protocols, right? Because like, that’s like, that’s kind of dogmatic, right? To be say, you know, you’re gonna do this, follow this recipe, regardless of how maybe are you reading how, like this is just an example, but are you feeling into how this food makes you feel when you eat it? Or because this person who you trust and respect is telling you that it’s good for your body, that you are just automatically assuming that it is, it is what your body needs and wants. And, and so like that is maybe a distinguishing, a way for us to read is like, is someone teaching us how to fish? Or are they just giving us the fish so you have to keep coming back to them? So you have to keep on paying, right? Like, ideally, like our teachers and guides, we won’t need them eventually. And, but are they, is the wound in them where their value comes from being needed by others, right? Their value

Amanda (18:16)

is associated, you know, their, their livelihood, their, whatever wealth they’re building is that dependent upon you not becoming an independent, sovereign, healed individual? So that’s some things to kind of play around with when you’re working with someone. It’s like, do you think that they’re really invested in you being able to, to fly on your own or are you always gonna be under their direction, under their, you know, their word is the gospel as far as what you are going to follow.

Kate (18:59)

Something when I was making notes on this, I wrote, you know, question everything. I think this is something that we need to learn to do. And we’ve maybe said this once in another episode that we’re not really taught to question everything, especially people who are authority figures, right? We have to learn to question everything, question what we’re saying right now, right? Don’t take anything we say for gospel but everything you should question and run it through your own internal barometer of does this feel good for me? Does this feel right to me? Does this feel resonant for me? Does it feel like something I want to bring into my system? And when I say into my system, I kind of feel like, you know, information is something we absorb as well. Like, we can decide that I don’t want to receive that in this moment, you know, and I think it’s such a good practice to be questioning everything. You know, even from people that we do love and admire and follow, like we have to have our own inner sense of what feels good and true for us, because we are all human and spiritual beings and learning, right? There’s not a single soul, I think on this planet that has it all figured out and who knows one distilled view of truth. Like we are learning truths. 

So, you know, even the best, the worst, most well -intentioned people and myself, you know, like I can think back to my journey and if I was to put out a video and claim some truths from two years ago, they’d be very different to what I would say now in some ways, because I’m different. I’ve grown, I’ve changed, I’ve learned more. So, not to say that what I said back then was wrong, but it’s just a snapshot of my consciousness in that moment of what was true and real for me then. You know, it’s very, it’s potentially different now or more expanded or come at it from different angles. So, you know, take that into consideration when we are learning from people or wanting to learn from people. I think it’s important to, you know, I always like to do this with my hands, like, anything we’re receiving, like let it kind of be filtered through, like you’ll catch some and you’ll release the rest. You don’t want to grab onto any single teaching, even from Eckhart Tolle or whoever that you’ve got to feel, does this fit for me? And in any given moment, some will, some won’t, you know, but let it be like filter everything you receive, the news, whatever, whoever, you know, and, and let you, you’ll know, you’ll start to feel through your discernment, what does feel like a truth? And I notice some people have physical reactions when they, you know, when we do hear a truth, you know, we get shivers or tingles or, you know, there’s this sensation. And then those are the things we’re like, okay, yes, I’m going to, I’m going to allow that one in and I’m going to follow that. And then I might leave the rest. So, you know, any given time we are learning from somebody, hearing a talk or a speech or, you know, reading information, we even like scientific information, you know, filter it all because, you know, I don’t know why, but at the moment I’ve been reading so many things about, I don’t know, energy healing, sound healing, whatever, but also through this sort of scientific lens of how, how science research is done and how actually, you know, it’s, it’s this, there’s, in fact, it’s infallible. Is that the right word? Like, I mean, it’s not always…

Amanda (22:43)

It’s fallible.

Kate (22:45)

Fallible. That’s the one. Yeah. It’s like, it’s yes, it can. It’s just like a snapshot of something as well. It’s not truth either. It’s not solid. 

Amanda (22:55)

Who’s funding it? What is the bias of those who are, you know we’re made to believe that science has all the answers, but the truth is that science is supposed to be an evolving process.

Kate (23:00)

Yeah and there’s, and how much, how many, you know, studies and researchers, research is thrown out because it doesn’t fit some model that science says it should, and yet is valid and it’s discounted. Like that’s what I’ve been getting a lot of recently is that how much, you know, is being discounted because it’s either who it’s coming from, where, how it bucks, you know, the, the common belief, or goes against it or, you know, just it’s not in the eyes of whoever, you know, effective. So even science, just to go off on a sidetrack there, it’s like, you know, we, not everything is published and what is published is, you know, a slice of what’s going on out there. So, you know, really again, filter, filter, filter, question everything. 

And I also want to say too, that as we go down these spiritual paths and as we awaken, we, are a spiritual being, right? We are that and we are human. Everything we technically need to be more spiritual, we already have and are, right? So yes, that’s one thing for me to say that  two, it’s another to sense it, realize it, experience it, right? But you are not lacking anything. There is not something someone else can give you to make you more you or more spiritual, it is simply a process of you doing the inner work, the healing work, having more awareness, you know, becoming to understand. And there is a learning component to that and a filtering and a, as I said, questioning everything, but like, we are the ones that do that? We are the ones that are going to be doing the work that shifts that experience for us that moves it along.

Someone can come in to offer you information, but it is not another person outside of you who has some secret code or recipe for you. That’s going to change your inner experience of yourself. It is up to us to do that, the work and the application of using tools and things like that to unlock things within us. You know, we’ve talked extensively in other episodes about types of things we can do like from plant medicine to breath work, to sound healing, to inner child work, to meditations, all of that.

That’s an, there’s so much of that is working with us on an inner level and an energetic level. That is shifting and changing things for us to have a different inner experience of ourselves that yes, sometimes we need someone to help us make sense of that, but that’s a different kind of conversation than us totally outsourcing our power to say, you have the solution for me. Tell me what I should do.

Amanda (25:56)

Totally. What came up as you were talking, like two stories came up.

One, so someone that I’ve listened, I’ve watched a lot of their YouTube videos over since I’d say probably like 2019. I’ve on and off, I haven’t watched every single one, but this person has been a good influence on my perspective of spirituality, discernment, different topics. But I’ve walked away from this person on multiple occasions because there was something, a perspective that she had that did not resonate. And one in particular, most recently, and because I’ve observed her over time, I see that she has a bias in this one particular area. And if I put her on a pedestal and I expect, if I expect her to know all the answers, all the truth, then I would just go along with what she’s saying when in my read, I see something different and I see she has a bit of a bias in that particular area.

And at the same time, like because I can see that she’s a human on her own journey, maybe she’s a little further along than I am, or you know, she’s older, she has more experience than me. I also don’t expect her to be perfect either. And so I can still come back and listen to her, but also recognize that, you know, she has some blind spots in this particular area.

Just from my observation of her over time, there’s like some, like how she’d use this topic versus something similar. There’s like an inconsistency because she has like an affinity for this particular group of people. And that’s fine, you know, we all have our biases, we all have our blind spots and I don’t need to throw everything that I’ve learned from her out because of that.

Kate (28:01)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Amanda (28:03)

Because it’s helped me, like she’s helped me develop my own discernment, right? Like what feels true, what doesn’t feel true. I don’t have to agree with everything that she says or her perspective. But if I was giving her all my power, I would just go along with it or I would just be done with her completely because, you know, she said one thing that doesn’t correspond to my viewpoint, right?

Amanda (28:32)

And then another story has to do with my, I’ll share, because this person has shared about her own journey as well, is someone that I worked with at the beginning of my journey. And I was seeking out, my mom had just passed away. And so I was seeking out someone, like there was like a hole, right? And so I was like wanting guidance and support and that person on their own journey, they were still like, they’re wanting to do some saving as well. And so like at that moment in time, like we served each other. There wasn’t like, it wasn’t a totally like, a very skewed imbalance of power or anything like that, I wasn’t taking advantage of, but I was seeking answers from them and they were like really invested in like me taking their answers. And then we got to a point where, you know, me on my own journey, like I was starting to like, I need to be able to trust myself and not look outside of myself. And they were also in their own journey of helping others like, seeing how it wasn’t working for them being like the savior, being like the, being in a codependent relationship where the other person is relying upon them, like they wanted to grow too. And so like we naturally went our own ways. And I think we both learned something through, like we were both part of each other’s growth journey. And like they, you know, they taught me about where I was giving my power away and where I was looking outside of myself.

Kate (30:16)


Amanda (30:23)

And I taught them of where they’re wanting to have that power and not in a terrible way. And then we both went off and did our own healing work. We stayed in touch and we’re now, we’re in completely different places and we have a much different, much healthier dynamic where we can like, they’re totally about respecting their clients, empowerment and sovereignty. And so it’s like in a much more equal playing field now, and it’s lovely that we were able to be those teachers for each other to go off and do our own work. And then we can still have a relationship afterwards.

Kate (31:10)

Hmm. As you say that it makes me think of, you know, what we’ve often talked about is being on the soul’s path, right? Like that no single part of that necessarily means that either of you are off path for being in this, you know, relationship, or program or, you know, in that, in that way, because it’s for the learning, right? You both came out of that with like, okay, that’s not, you know, I want to learn this self responsibility, not abdicating my power. So, you know, I think that speaks to something we said before is that we do need to have these experiences. It’s through the experience of things and not just us telling you this that helps you understand, yeah, okay, I got burned there or that doesn’t feel good there, or I can see how this dynamic is off.

I can see and I understand now what it, what, what the signs are or what to look out for in terms of what is right for me and what isn’t right for me in terms of where I am seeking, you know, to work with someone, to be guided by someone, to learn from someone, you know, so that it must be through our experiences that we, can grow to know those things, to be able to build that, that, that within us. And something else you said was that.

Again, when we’re working with people or teachers, you know, exactly as you said, there’s no sort of linear path of, you know, we start out to become more spiritual or we have an awakening and we start at point A and we’re working our way from B to C to D to E to, you know, down the path, right? So anyone that we might perceive as ahead of us, yes, in some area they may be because their experience involved them really deeply going into an aspect or a part of it, you know, and, I know for me, like I think for me that feels like ego is a massive part of it. But then there’s a whole bunch of other things that I know hardly anything about that I’m learning about. So while I might be able to talk on that for hours, that doesn’t mean that I have, you know, qualifications or the ability to really unpack other parts, you know, and I’m still learning that. So it’s like, as you said, when we do choose those people to learn from whatever that, that comes in of like remembering just because they’re ahead in, you know, ahead quote unquote in one part, you know, we still, many of us and myself included having worked as a coach, I’m still working through my shit. I still am working through my wounds. I’m still doing my inner work. So, you know, either as a client or as the one facilitating it is so on us to, you know, make sure that we are, well, from the, from the coach’s side acting in that integrity of okay, here are the things that I do know that I am able to share from a place of integrity. And if I’m still these parts I’m still working on, then, you know, I maybe I can speak to that and relate, but, you know, it’s important to not be acting from the wound, but be acting from integrity. And then, you know, as you said, on the receiving side, remembering to that, not everything is going to feel right. And yet take the value that you find.

Amanda (34:29)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, I think what popped in my head right now when you’re talking was, it took me back to like my days of being a doctor. And that dynamic to me, I don’t like because well, first of all, I felt as a doctor, like, because I’m like, I’m the authority, like, I’m, you know, the whole white coat, like, come to me and I’ll tell you what to do. And, and I think, I don’t think, I think, I don’t think it’s always this case within a doctor -patient relationship. I think good doctors recognize the sovereignty of their patients, right?

Kate (34:53)

Mm -hmm.

Amanda (35:15)

But there is this sense of authority that one has to step, one often steps into or then the old model of doctor -patient relationship. It was come to me, I have the answers and I will heal you. And that felt, that did not feel good to me. And I didn’t, it felt, it felt like I was wearing like a dirty shirt. It just did not feel good to me because it didn’t feel like I was being truthful. So, and so that also like another thing that brought up is the concept of healer. Like I’m going to you for you to heal me. But I think true healers recognize that it is, they are just doing things so your body, your mind, your spirit can do the healing itself, recognizing that ability is innate, right? Like when we cut ourselves, our body knows how to, our immune system, our cells know how to organize to heal that wound. Sometimes we have to give it something to, you know, we need to clean it, we need to get rid of the obstacles.

Kate (36:13)


Amanda (36:35)

Remove the obstacles to healing so then the body can do what it knows how to do and so I think when we forget that and we you know we give, I think on a spiritual level, on an energetic level, when we think that someone else is doing the healing that is an impediment to our healing in and of itself, right? And so I think true healers are

Kate (36:47)

Mm -hmm.

Amanda (37:04)

are the ones that remind us of our ability to heal and help activate maybe what may be dormant because maybe we were never exposed to that concept of our innate healing abilities. And so, you know, whether it’s healing on a physical level, our personal development, our spiritual development, the people that we are working with should be like a container reminding us of who we truly are and not perpetuating or creating a dependency where we feel like we have to always, that we’re powerless without them.

Kate (37:56)

Mm -hmm.

Amanda (37:57)

And I think because when, in Western societies, we go and we seek a pill to heal us, right? Even plant medicine, it’s like we can give our power away to plant medicine if we think  I’m just gonna go drink ayahuasca and it’s going to heal me. I think from what I’ve learned and have heard, those can be some really, if we go into it with that mindset, we can have a really hard time because actually the lesson that we need to learn is that we need to have a little more responsibility for our role in the process. And I think if we don’t, same thing, I think, whether it’s ayahuasca, whether it’s a spiritual teacher, we’re gonna have more extreme experiences the more we’re just willing to like, here, take my, here, you fix me. We’re gonna be taken advantage of. 

Amanda (39:06)

I think that’s just the nature of how it is because there are those out there that want the power, whether it’s conscious or unconscious, that exists.

Something that was interesting when I was reading the article was that itwas written from the vantage points of there were some things in there was like, they made them just eat this diet. And it’s like, okay, you’re totally taking away those people’s, the people that did this, it was like an extreme diet. I don’t remember the details specifically of it, but you are taking away their own agency as a human being to say that unless they held a gun to their head, they didn’t make them and they had a choice in the matter. I think when we go through those experiences to really grow, we have to ask ourselves, what role did I play in this dynamic? Why was I willing to do a crazy diet like this?

Kate (40:07)

Mm -hmm.

Amanda (40:14)

Even if I may have like there might have been some questioning that I had and I ignored it and I listened to these other people like why and like so what what lesson is in this unfortunate situation that you know I’m not trying to shame people which sometimes it can come off as that but it’s like okay you were in this situation what is the lesson here for you like and viewing it from that perspective, it’s like, maybe this lesson happened so you can become the more actualized human being to do what you’re here to do in this lifetime so you can remember your power.

Kate (41:00)

Yeah, one of the things that I wanted to say was just to second what you said is to seek when we’re seeking a healer, remember that they are there to assist you, not heal you. Right? Like you said, if we’re just like, okay, fix me. That even in an energetic way, like here, you’re not even really there receiving the fullness of the potential of the healing, unless you’re actively involved in that as well. Like I am here to receive, I am here to heal. I’m here to play my role in this healing, not just like, okay, here’s my body or whatever, fix me. You know, there’s a different energetic in that, there’s a different way that we’re engaging with that person. 

Amanda (41:39)

So yeah, I’ll share something that I observed in Costa Rica, because I started looking at a lot of different eco villages, eco communities. And what I realized is that there, I don’t think we’re ready right now. Or if, in order for one to be a success or to be are able to live in small communities, everyone having a role within the community. There has to be a lot of healing by everyone in that community otherwise, it’s, it becomes like a cult, it becomes like, someone starts it, maybe a few people start it, and it’s a top -down structure. And there are people who come in and they look to those leaders to make the decision. There’s still this power dynamic structure that needs to shift in order for these communities to work.

And I’m sure there are communities that are doing well, but I saw a lot that there are issues because if people don’t come into the community willing to, being willing to take responsibility, if you don’t have leaders who aren’t willing to look at their ego and their shadow and they’re there for the power, it’s going to be a, smaller version of a dysfunctional community.

So, you know, I think that, I think that we’ll get there, right? I think that there are a lot of people doing a lot of healing work right now. And so learning to be more discerning as far as like setting the intention of like, who do we want? Like what type of person do we want to come into this community? What are our standards? And it takes a lot of personal work to be able hold that container to lead but from a place recognizing that everyone in the group has something to contribute and is of value and is of importance, right? Like I’m sure there’s people who will always be kind of like a leader role, but it’s not in the, I’m the authority, what I say goes, and everyone else is going to be willing to listen. They have to be willing to respect everyone in the community as playing an equal and important so, you know, that’s just like kind of a larger example of what I think is kind of the same dynamic of the, the coach and the, the client, the healer and the patient, right? It’s you know,  are the healers doing the work? Are the coaches doing their own personal work? Recognizing, you know, where, like you mentioned, where are you ahead? And what, where, how can you help? But also where can you like bring, bring up the person that you’re working with and not be afraid of like, what if they pass you, right? Like a lot, I think a lot of, you know, what if they exceed you in certain areas? Is that, is that something that one is okay with in that role? That means looking at your shadow, looking at your wounds, right? Like being with those and so yeah, that’s all I have to say about that topic.

Kate (45:27)

I have a little list here of like for people as they do seek out people to work with to further themselves on their journeys after their awakening, on their spiritual paths. We’ve said a lot, you know, it’s about learning to discern and really feel your way through and question everything, and just become more aware of when you maybe are giving all of your authority to someone else or maybe just that pedestal thing, it could be super subtle.

And I mean, it’s a big one, big, big learning in my life. And I feel like I’ve got the last person off the pedestal. Cause so, you know, it’s been a series of people and the last one really, really was an eye opening experience for me. Someone that I had looked up to for a really long time and I, you know, just thought she was the shit and couldn’t wait to work with her and then got into this, you know, went to a retreat and then I was sort of very underwhelmed of like, I thought this was going to be so different from the way it’s had been advertised years and years and years on years. And like, I was waiting for this massive transformation again, I’m throwing out this expectation. She’s this, this event is going to transform my life because I’m going and she’s going to be there and she’s going to teach it. And then later on, got to work with her in a different situation in a much more personal way.

And realised that this person is nothing like the front, nothing like the Instagram posts, nothing like the motivational speeches, nothing like that. In reality, this person is just as dysfunctional as the next person. The pedestal just drops and I could feel the return of my power in that situation. And I was like, okay, that’s, that was a shock to me.

And it’s like, ok, I’ll totally let that relationship, connection go. It’s, you know, there is a literal returning of our power when we can realize where we have even just been holding someone up above us, you know, we do give power to that. So therefore in some ways in an energetic way, feel a little powerless or less powerful because there’s some actual giving of energy. So there’s a personal example.

But what I wanted to also say is like thinking of this article that we read signs we can look out for when we’re learning to discern are things like, anything that’s part of what is being offered that seems restrictive or even the thinking might be restrictive. And it’s like, this is the only way we can see things, or this is the only truth. Perhaps the fact that it is super expensive.

Not all the time, but I think we’re also maybe moving out of a time where, you know, these exorbitant prices for a single coaching program or single sessions. And I know there’s life coaches out there that work with high net worth individuals so that they, you know, they, they charge a lot, whether that’s awesome and beneficial. I don’t know. 

Amanda (48:34)

I think if someone’s targeting high net worth people, right? Like they’re not trying to take someone’s like, hey, put it on a credit card. If you believe you’re worth it, you should put it on a credit card because that’s you investing in yourself, right? So if it’s like, it should match the return, it should match like who the demographic that they’re targeting, right? Like if someone’s, you know, join my $10 ,000 program and you’re just, you know, for business, for example, and you’re just starting out in business. It’s like, if they’re, if they, if, if that coach, that business coach is targeting you and they don’t say like, you’re not my, you’re not my, my target audience. They’re just after the money. Right. So similar, like, yeah.

Kate (49:22)

Yeah, yeah. And really just, just, just seeing here there exactly is that right for you? Is there that reflection of them understanding that you’re right for them?

The other thing, I mean, we had an episode, I think it was the last one that came out where we’re talking about spiritual ego, you know, when we can get a handle on understanding our own, there’s an ability for us to see when someone might be coming from a place of spiritual ego and, you know, offering their services from this place of, I have reached this level. And so therefore you, you know, it’s again, that victim oppressor, at least the teacher down that I know something you don’t. So, you know, whereas the really beneficial dynamic that we’re moving into is like, I have something to teach you and you probably got something to teach me as well, but here, let me share my wisdom with you so that you can use that for your journey. You know, a kind of meeting of minds and even playing field of like, I’ll share with you what I’ve got a good grasp on and then, you know, take that and off you go kind of thing. And like you said, really being aware of when there might be in that dynamic of that relationship, this need for you to continue and continue and continue and continue and like, kind of like keep the carrot on the stick right in front of you the whole way. 

And the other thing, like if, if anyone is sort of putting down other groups of people or people who are less evolved, if there’s anything like that, like that’s from a spiritual lens,

Amanda (50:40)


Kate (50:51)

In my opinion, like then that’s outside of really anything that we’re looking to develop and cultivate within ourselves. It’s like, you know, we’re all on the path where people, there’s no one really outside of that from the deepest part of the spiritual perspective. Like there is no one that’s lesser. There’s, you know, even the idea that someone’s further behind on the path. Like we’re just all having our own different experiences, you know, and some of us have got to a point where we have a broader understanding of certain things.Really at the basics of it all.

Health claims, you know, and I think something in this particular article, they had very expensive elixirs that were meant to do something and upgrade DNA and things like that. And like, you know, who knows, maybe, but if it also costs $10 ,000, then maybe not. Yeah. Yeah. Right. 

Amanda (51:39)

For like a tincture bottle.

Kate (51:48)

For a tincture bottle. Exactly. And then I wrote like claims of being reincarnated as God or something like that. If they were, they wouldn’t need to make the claims again, the spiritual ego, if they’re enlightened, they’re not going to be walking around and going, I’m the guru, I’m the shit. They’ll just be, you know, like I’ve read Ram Dass’s book, Be Love Now, and he talks about his guru in India and he was this really just regular guy, right? He didn’t want claim, didn’t want to be claimed as anything, you know, just had knowledge or wisdom and insight, you know, so again, that spiritual ego isn’t there coming from that person. And then one of the last things too is there’s this sense that they have something sacred, special or secret to offer that only they know or they have, you know, I mean, this is an extreme example, especially because it’s coming from this particular article, but anything like that. There’s anyone that’s sort of keeping something from you and then to get it, you need to work with me like red flag. Find somebody else. Yeah. Anything you don’t want to add to that.

Amanda (52:54)

That’s a really good list. Yeah, so the concept of the Messiah complex, right? Like, if I mean, that’s, it’s a representation of the big spiritual ego saying like, I’m, I’m here to save you. And you need to, you know, give me this, do this, you know, spin around three times, you know, like, getting someone to do whatever you say, like, that’s a way of receiving power, which, you know, the concept of I’ve heard this, this use is like siphoning energy, right? Like, so, so those that are wanting the power, it’s like they are, it almost feeds the ego, it feeds this, this, this hole that they’re trying to fill. And it’s kind of like a vampire in a way. It’s like, you think about it, 

Kate (53:31)

Mm -hmm.

Amanda (53:50)

It’s  like, I need your energy. I need your life force versus recognizing that like my life force can be filled at the same that you’re like, we both can like that idea of I need to take from you in order to feel powerful and abundant that’s a, operating from a scarcity perspective, right? Like there’s a limited amount of power versus I can, I can go higher and you can go higher. Like there, there’s not a ceiling. There’s not a, limitation of where we can go by working with each other. Right. 

Also I’ve heard of the term like having a hook put in you and like, I think I’ve heard that being referenced in like, ayahuasca or other plant medicines. Definitely this stuff happens with shamans, those that are guiding people with plant medicine, which is why it’s so important that people know who they’re sitting with, have references to know, have a sense, you’re never gonna know for certain, but to have a sense of like this person in integrity because it’s been, you know, it’s almost like this energetic hook that shamans can put in people that can like drain your life force beyond the ceremony. 

There was, Aubrey Marcus told the story of his ex -girlfriend who they went down to the jungle and his girlfriend felt terrible afterwards. She was not the same. And then they went to another shaman and they talked about how they had to go up into the astral to duel with this other shaman who put a hook in his girlfriend to relieve her of this problem that developed as a result of that ceremony. Not to frighten people, but so it’s an awareness, right? Like go in with your eyes open to these situations and know that we have to, you know, we don’t need to be fearful, but we also need to like a protection around us, have boundaries, not just go in thinking this person is just going to take care of you, right? Like you have to like read the signs. And, and I think when you do that, you’re less likely to be the person that they try to put the hook in because they see like you’re not an easy target if you are not giving everything away so easily. It’s, it’s an interesting paradox in that way. It’s like to protect yourself, you, you’re not going to be the target if you’re, have your wits about you, you realize that you don’t need to give all your power away to someone or you don’t need to give your power away at all in order for them to help you, right? Like, so you’re not going to be their target. If you, if you sense, if you have your, your radar out, you’re, you’re paying attention. You’re not going to be the one that they, go for the easier victim, if that makes sense, right?

Kate (57:41)

Yeah, I think that there’s, when we are in and as I said before, like even me putting someone on a pedestal prior to me removing that energy and letting them off that pedestal, then I felt the energy returned to me. I didn’t really feel it prior to that, but I do think that from an energetic perspective, when we are fully abdicating our power, giving it to someone else like, that energy is felt by someone who maybe is in that more egoic space or, you know, savior complex, whatever. There’s, you know, there’s some sort of sensation or sensing of that energy dynamic that then they can sense that, you know, there’s someone, let’s say weaker here that can be, you know, they can bring in or whatever it is, whatever happens with the energy. I believe and I sense that, you know, when we’re really giving that away, that’s felt, you know, on that energetic level.

Amanda (58:35)

Yes. You said that better. That’s perfect way to like, say that succinctly. It’s like, when we’re just letting our power out, it’s like, it’s a magnet for those that want the power, right? It’s just like drawing them in, in a way.

Kate (58:49)

Yeah. And so then, as you said, those energetic boundaries and like,  sitting to think about, you know, what, what am I okay with? What am I not okay with, you know, is where we can start to build a boundary. But such an important thing, if something does feel off. It probably is. And a big part of the journey is trusting what you sense, trusting what you feel, trusting what you read, trusting the intuition, cause it’s so hard early on. And, and for a lot of our lives, cause our mind just overrides it. Cause it’s like, no, but I want this thing or they’re the one, or, you know, this is going to help me, but it’s overriding that alarm bell inside. So there’s such an important practice to really know when I’m receiving that inner message of this doesn’t feel right, but learning to trust it without ever having to get any explanation or that you’ve got to learn to trust yourself, learn to trust your read. It’ll save you a lot of grief potentially or money, who knows, by really learning to listen to yourself. Anything else you want to add to that, Amanda?

Amanda (1:00:06)

I think that’s the perfect way to end. And I think maybe, I think we’ve talked about intuition and inner guidance before, but just like having a whole, maybe one of our next episodes together, we can maybe explore that in more depth and talk about maybe our journeys with that and explore what does that look like to cultivate that inner, that inner knowing and I think we’ve alluded to that a lot in this conversation of like, how do you not end up the victim of a cult, right? Like whether it is an actual cult or not, right? Like how do we, how do we, it’s through the development. And as you stated, we have hiccups. We might have some lessons that help us develop that, but I think it’d be good for us to dive into that more, having a longer conversation and that might compliment this conversation nicely.

Kate (1:01:05)

Yeah. that sounds great. And if anyone has questions on what we’ve raised today, we’d love to hear them. So wherever you’re listening or you can leave comments, if it’s on YouTube or even get to our website to, to leave us a message. We love to continue with any other questions that you have about this or anything else that comes up for you as you listen to any of our episodes. And we can potentially bring that into our conversation. So please do leave them if you have them.

Amanda (1:01:35)

Yeah, that and also if you have anything that maybe we’ve touched upon, but maybe that you really liked letting us know that’s helpful for us in terms of choosing our topics about what we’re going to talk about. And you can like Kate said, do on YouTube. You can also go to our website and there’s a contact form that you can fill out there and we’ll receive that. And we’d love to hear your thoughts, your comments, your experiences of what comes up for you, because that helps us know what you guys want to listen to.

Thank you for listening. And thanks for this conversation, Kate, and look forward to our next one.


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Awakening Conversations Podcast

With Kate Megee & Amanda Richardson-Meyer

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Kate & amanda - Your hosts on this conversational journey!

Meet your hosts

Both Amanda & Kate have been through and are still going through their own awakening journeys, which, in fact, the creation of this podcast is a continuation of their awakening unfoldings.

While being located in very different geographical regions of Earth, they have brought their energy together through the gift of technology to explore the ideas and experiences of the awakening journey, which has transformed each of their lives in unique ways.

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No Glitter Brown GradientAmanda Richardson-Meyer
No Glitter Brown GradientKate Megee
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